Curse

freekedoutfish · May 28, 2007, 06:14 PM // 18:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

"Vanquishing in HM needs made a bit less painfull!"

...Because I suck and can't handle the game in a harder mode? Seriously, I've found a way to vanquish every area I've encountered so far with just heroes+henchies. Sure it's going to be more challenging than normal mode, but that's why it's called hard mode. It's not impossible, and it's meant to only be achieved by the most dedicated players.

Did I say it was impossible, or that I wasnt able to do HM? No...

...all I said, was that vanquishing was too frustrating to be fun. Anet needs to give us some lee-way to add the fun back into it.

To expect us to have a -60dp restriction while playing, but to provide no way to effectively removing it, is unreasonable. Yes it gets removed killing creatures and bosses, but not fast enough to make that removal effective.

You only get about 100-200 creatures in an instance, so if your on about -60dp and you only have about 30-40 left, you couldnt even remove it by killing them all and not dieing.

So lets assume your all on -50dp, and you have one group of 3 creatures and an oober boss left. How can you remove that dp before fighting? You cant unless you have a huge supple of candy canes. But those are festival items which arent avilable all year around and my supply is running out.

Chances are that group of 4 will wipe you out first run and knock you all down to -60dp and its over. That is frustrating!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spazzer

If you are going into a difficult area, you can sent one of your heroes back who has rebirth. Even if you wipe, you'll still have your little resbot back there as a safety.

I think you missed the point a slightly. Im talking about vanquishing instances in HM, where if you all reach -60dp its over and your forced back to the town.

It isnt a problem being able to ress your team. Im always at the back and capable of running away and ressing them.

The point is that you reach -60dp so fast in HM, that its slightly unreasonable for Anet to expect us to vanquish under those conditions. Its too much to ask us to constantly monitor our own dp, the heroes dp and guess the hench dp!

Especially when we have NO way of removing it, unless you have a supply of candy canes. But even those dont effect heroes or henchs unless its a team one.

You will always reach a point when trying to vanquish an area, where your entire team is at -60dp and your on maybe -30dp and you know your only going to get a few chances before your kicked out.

It could be the last 3 creatures, but because your so low on dp they can kill you extremely easily. Unless your a god at keeping your team alive constantly, that situation will always occur. And its frustrating.

You spend 15-30 minutes vanquishing an area, only to get kicked out when you all reach -60dp and you only had 3 creatures left! Yes its meant to be hard, and its meant to be challenge, but being put under that amount of stress removes the fun.

And it isnt fun when its so stressfull.

Anet needs to ease off on the dealth penality, make it recover faster or allow merchants to sell cheap foods that remove team death penality.

Spazzer · May 28, 2007, 06:19 PM // 18:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

I think you missed the point a slightly. Im talking about vanquishing instances in HM, where if you all reach -60dp its over and your forced back to the town.

You can still hard res partymembers who are at 60dp. You are only kicked back to town in the event of a full wipe.

MagmaRed · May 28, 2007, 08:39 PM // 20:39

Ok, I'm going to be an ass this time. What I hear is:

"I can't handle Hard Mode Vanquishing, and need it to be made easier, or it isn't any fun."

I learned after my first 60DP wipe, that leaving a boss till last was not a good idea. I clear easy groups last, that way if I get killed at a boss group, I have a way to remove some DP. It takes a different kind of strategy, and it doesn't sound like you are using anything but Normal Mode strategies.

Take 3 Monks, instead of 2.
Take 2 MMs instead of 1.
etc.

Do things you don't normally do, based on what you know you will face. DP may not cause an end to exploration/battle in Normal Mode, but you are asking for Hard Mode to be made EASIER than Normal Mode in respect to DP. As I mentioned before, you already receive +50% XP in Hard Mode, which helps eliminate DP faster than in Normal Mode. If you frequently reach the 60% DP mark, then you need to find a different way of tackling that zone.

Now, lets suppose Anet decided to add a new item into the game, which lowered DP of the whole team (heroes/hench included). How many people would be using those items in Normal Mode, making that even easier than it already is? You want it to be a cheap item too.... but Hard Mode already offers better drops, which would be used to pay for these items.

Hard Mode is...... hard. You are asking for it to be made easier. Furthermore, you are asking for things that can greatly upset the balance of the game. Why worry about DP in Normal Mode when I now have a cheap item that removes it from my team - I'll be Leeroy and not care how many times I die!

I have a few areas I can't Vanquish yet. Yes, it frustrates me. I have tried several different strategies for those areas. Heroes/hench are not doing what I need done, and I have decided I need real players for help on those areas. I have one person in my guild besides me, and he hates Vanquishing, and most of Hard Mode. However, I know several people who help me, and I help them, when asked. If you are in a guild that doesn't help its members, why are you in that guild? If its for something other than PvE, then why stress over PvE, or why stay in it? If you know people who like doing things in Hard Mode, talk to them, ask if they have done things, if they want to do things, or if they can make suggestions for you.

I have seen posts on Guru here of people forming Vanquishing groups. Try meeting up with these people and see if that gives you what you need to finish it.

Quit crying about it, and find a solution, as there are already answers available to you.

NORTICAT · May 28, 2007, 10:28 PM // 22:28

if hard mode is painful and scary because you dont like dp and cant focus on all the things going on....dont try for legendary survivor.

freekedoutfish · May 29, 2007, 08:29 AM // 08:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagmaRed

Quit crying about it, and find a solution, as there are already answers available to you.

How am I crying? im simply saying vanguishing isnt that fun to do, due to certain limitations. I obviously like doing HM, otherwise why would I be chasing guardian titles?

Im pretty sure I mentioned somewhere to make a condition on the food saying "can only be used in hard mode"! But if you missed it, there you go!

The issue with taking out bosses before anything else is...

1) You have to know exactly where every single boss is.
2) There are sometimes more then one boss in an area (some have ALOT).
3) The bosses are sometimes swamped by mobs.

It isnt always a case of just picking off a boss first, because if there are 5 bosses. Your bound to be at -60dp by the 3rd one. That would be agonising knowing if you reach -60dp your out of there.

I agree a different tactic is needed, and again im not complaining about it being hard. Im complaining that its frustrating and removing the fun because of the -60dp limit.

I accept it should be hard and I accept the -60dp is a good limitation. The issue is that you achieve death penality in hard mode too easily and that its takes too long to remove.

If we simply added a food to the merchant, which removed dp in certain amounts from the team, which was limited to use in the hard mode, then it wouldnt unbalance normal mode.

Im not asking for things which will have knock-on effects in normal mode, because they either cant be used there or take effect there.

XiGhost · May 29, 2007, 10:52 AM // 10:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

It isnt always a case of just picking off a boss first, because if there are 5 bosses. Your bound to be at -60dp by the 3rd one.

There are plenty of other mobs to kill, so you can shift some of that DP.

I am around 25/34 in Elona, yes Elemental and Rit bosses are terrible but most other bosses shouldn't wipe All of your team.

But hey, more DP makes Prot Spirit more effective.

elsalamandra · May 29, 2007, 11:37 AM // 11:37

before i start, this is not a moan as it could be interpretted by some as a moan.

i think that hard mode is a fantastic FREE addition to the game but having said this, i think, and going by Anet's policy to maintain balance, which is done very quick when players exploit things like farming etc etc, the hard mode should be re-balanced.

why?

well take for instance diessa lowlands and the gargoyles by nolani academy.

party size = 4.

you can have 60dp so quick with so much hexes.

the same applies to many other areas particularly magumma jungle with the toucher scarabs.

i am not saying by this that hard mode should be buffed but there should be some form of balance in place to make it more playable as sometimes most of it is done with heroes and hench.

thanks

Perfected Shadow · May 29, 2007, 11:41 AM // 11:41

Henchmen should be considerably buffed (runes, equipment, skills). Increased incentive to do HM might attract more players.

Rit and Ele bosses ftl...

freekedoutfish · May 29, 2007, 12:25 PM // 12:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by XiGhost

There are plenty of other mobs to kill, so you can shift some of that DP.

I am around 25/34 in Elona, yes Elemental and Rit bosses are terrible but most other bosses shouldn't wipe All of your team.

But hey, more DP makes Prot Spirit more effective.

You've pointed out one reason why I made this thread. The Rit bosses in HM instances (from my experience) are extremely over powered.

I took a party of 8 out of Kaineng to try and vanquish that area south of there. I was doing fine and enjoying it, as the count is only about 100 creatures. Im thinking "cool, this is decent enough challenge".

Then I reached a point where there was a ritualist in the mob. I had an MM with full 10 minions, a decent monk and other AI. I went in, picked my targets and tried to wipe them.

I had no dp at this point, and also no candy cane which could effect the entire team.

Within about 2 seconds of rushing this mob, the Ritualist wiped us out. Upon ressing 2 meteres away, I tried again going straight for the Ritualist. Again the whole team is dead in seconds.

Now you can imagine with the increasing dp levels, you have less and less chance to kill that mob with the oober Ritualist. It only takes one shot of spirit rift to wipe a team out once you have enough dp on you.

Now yes, you can use scrolls to gain more xp and remove dp faster, but that means you have to kill things for it to take effect. With that entire area having a Rit in each mob, your not going to get close enough to kill anyone when your high on dp!

Its great they made the areas hard, but its not great they made certain classes oober hard.

Even the Ritualists in mobs of just 3 are that oober strong, that on the training island with no dp, they can wipe a team out in seconds. From the 7 or 8 areas ive vanquishes, its only the Ritualists that give any real problems. The other professions seem fine to me.

This is why trying to do HM vanquishing once you loose even a few pips in dp, is frustrating.

RbX · May 29, 2007, 01:02 PM // 13:02

Another thing that isn't balanced:

Kaineng area with lvl 26 Jade Brotherhood mobs are way stronger than Raisu Palace with lvl 30 mobs and no problems whatsoever vanquishing it. Same Group/skills applied to both runs.

Brotherhood guys have insane healers and most of the times 2 area dmg eles with instant kill abilities.. not even protectice spirit can keep a whole group alive because of the constant interrupts from the mesmers in the group who have also the strongest hex removes atm with them..so no backfire hex can be used there.

It would be very nice if somebody could balance this a little bit out.

Charlotte the Harlot · May 30, 2007, 02:35 AM // 02:35

The lack of players is annoying and most people don't want anything but necs eles monks and wars in hm so finding a pug with my ranger or a friend to do it with is tough. Being forced to use the ai is annoying and the dp issues make it worse so i agree that something needs to be done.

So unless anet does something about party formation difficulties (ie global party search) they should atleast tone down the ele/rit bosses, make interrupts useful in hm (normally 1 sec cast in hm= impossible from a ranger, 2 sec cast=hard) or do something about DP relief.

If they are going to make Hard Mode frustrating mode like this I would rather go play a game thats fun 1 player. I'm already expecting someone to say "please do" so don't bother.

Incase any1 is still looking for hard mode and doesn't mind a ranger on their team my IGN is Charlote The Harlot im uax have all heroes and stuff and will probably be looking for most HM stuff.

Francis Crawford · Jun 01, 2007, 05:02 AM // 05:02

Two words: Candy Canes.

That said, the 60% DP limit is silly. If somebody is willing to slog through the difficulties at 60% DP -- which probably involves LOTS of wipes and rezzes -- why not let them?

freekedoutfish · Jun 01, 2007, 07:55 AM // 07:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Francis Crawford

Two words: Candy Canes.

That said, the 60% DP limit is silly. If somebody is willing to slog through the difficulties at 60% DP -- which probably involves LOTS of wipes and rezzes -- why not let them?

The point was that candy canes are like gold dust and you will get charged over the hill to buy them from someone else.

I had loads of candy canes when I first started HM, and now im down to virtually none. I used all the removal from team ones.

This is why we need a perminant supply of them (similar food) either from merchants or drops.

Razorblade Monkey · Jun 01, 2007, 08:23 AM // 08:23

Call me crazy, but... (no, that's not an invitation =oP)

In my Vanquishing experience (or ANY gw experience, really), I've found that if you get wiped (and in HM case, booted back to town) with an AI team, it's probably 1 of 3 things: Either you weren't paying proper attention (not the games fault), you suck (still not the games fault), or your team/hero builds aren't right for the area (again, not the games fault)... Not every build works in every area. Most areas I have vanquished successfully (all with heroes/henchies) I have been on between 15-30 dp, hardly near being booted, because I adjust the team to the area. Think of the skills the area uses and counter them. If you don't like the rit on noob island, interrupt the buggery out of him... See him try pop out a channeled strike if he's interrupted and knocked down with his face in the dirt... If the area like applying conditions, take lots of condition removal and condition reducers etc etc... It's not rocket science but you can't just assume your 'sure-fire' team works everywhere, it takes some planning. Enjoy the strategy of it people =o)

Div · Jun 01, 2007, 08:38 AM // 08:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Don't argue with idiots. They bring you to their level and beat you with experience.

QFT. For all you people that says HM should be easier, I'm completely sorry for questioning your superior expertise. I forget not to argue with you guys. After all, it's not like HM was meant to be hard and painful or anything...

Sophitia Leafblade · Jun 01, 2007, 11:34 AM // 11:34

Ok about a slightly extreme change, in hard mode u gain no dp, however if u get a full party wipe u return to outpost. This allow u to not get completly bullied by the enemys with hench with about 100 hp that die in 2 hits from anything. But it would mean u still have a restiction to ressing all the time.

Ok maybe to make it a little less extreme how about ur allowed 1 full party res per boss killed. You start the area with 1 full res possible, if u die a second time then ur returned to town, kill a boss and ur allowed one more full party res like the equivlent of recharging a res signet. (there is no stacking so if u kill 2 bosses with no full party wipes u still only have 1 full restore allowed.)

Emik · Jun 01, 2007, 12:22 PM // 12:22

Another thread about HM being to hard.
Change your way of playing.
If you keep dying all the time it's not the game's fault but your own.
My suggestion is to remake your team build and start over without rushing in like a muppet, dying over and over and then coming on here to complain about your Leeroying tactics.
Sorry, no sympathy from me.

Evilsod · Jun 01, 2007, 12:35 PM // 12:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Francis Crawford

Two words: Candy Canes.

That said, the 60% DP limit is silly. If somebody is willing to slog through the difficulties at 60% DP -- which probably involves LOTS of wipes and rezzes -- why not let them?

If you have to rely on Candy Canes to get through the simpler areas of the game, do you even deserve to vanquish them? I'm not talking about Poisoned Outcrops here where Unwakened mobs are ridiculously big and lethal.

The only thing that needs a look at are Elementalist and Ritualist bosses. The HM buffs are ridiculous, a single Liquid Flame from the Mind Burn boss in Resplendent Makuun can kill your entire party. A single Spirit Rift or Ancestors Rage from any Ritualist boss will instantly kill multiple people. I'm not saying make the whole thing easier, i have 1 area left for Legendary Vanquisher, much of it done with H/H, but those bosses REALLY need looking at in terms of damage, i've cleared Lornars and Dreadnoughts using hench with no major problems. Yet i was wiped 4 times in a row by the Mind Burn boss in Resplendent even though he was dazed, i still went on to clear the area with 50+ dp... but it was no means fun.

The only other thing that annoys me are the Charr... they've been overbuffed way too much. The warriors attack faster than sound, the Mesmers just power block you, the necros spam degen and Lingering on everything and the monks... well are pretty bad. In a party of 8 vs that sorta thing it wouldn't be too bad, but with 4/6 man parties they're just so overpowered.

freekedoutfish · Jun 01, 2007, 12:57 PM // 12:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emik

Another thread about HM being to hard.
Change your way of playing.
If you keep dying all the time it's not the game's fault but your own.
My suggestion is to remake your team build and start over without rushing in like a muppet, dying over and over and then coming on here to complain about your Leeroying tactics.
Sorry, no sympathy from me.

Another person not reading the thread right. I didnt say it too hard, I said it was absolutely fine. I like hard mode (points at the photo of him with guardian of tyria).

My point was that some aspects of vanguishing are too frustrating!

Evilsod · Jun 01, 2007, 01:10 PM // 13:10

No you were basically complaining about the usual lack of AI and about how you made your build more about offence than defence so once you get DP you can't survive.

Personally i've not had much trouble in some areas with high DP. Sure, that Resplendent Makuun was a bit annoying having anywhere from 0-3 deaths per mob if it involved Djinn, all i can say is you were obviously lacking defence.

Although it was funny while doing Tahnnakai Temple with a friend and his Zhed was getting killed by a single Channeled Strike every single mob no matter what. I just couldn't be bothered to pre-prot him, which would've solved everything... that or bring a Spirit Spammer.